Twelve Who Shaped San Diego was an educational series of radio programs broadcast on KPBS in 1978. It explored the legacies of a dozen influential San Diegans over the course of four centuries, charting the evolution of San Diego from a colonial missionary settlement into a modern city. The series was produced by the San Diego History Radio Project and was made possible by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities.
Scroll down to listen to these programs, or click the name of a specific program.
- Program #1: Juan Rodriguez Cabrillo
- Program #2: Junipero Serra
- Program #3: Henry Delano Fitch
- Program #4: Jose Antonio Estudillo
- Program #5: Louis Rose
- Program #6: Alonzo Horton
- Program #7: John D. Spreckels
- Program #8: Kate Sessions
- Program #9: Ellen Browning Scripps
- Program #10: William Kettner
- Program #11: Ed Fletcher
- Program #12: George Marston
- Program #13: San Diego: Past and Present
Image credit: Serra Museum, San Diego Photograph Collection.
Program #1: Juan Rodriguez Cabrillo (c. 1500-1543):
Juan Rodriguez Cabrillo was the first European to set foot on the shores on what is now San Diego. Cabrillo claimed what is now San Diego Bay for the Spanish Empire in 1542 and named the site San Miguel. It is with Cabrillo that San Diego's written history begins.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the motives for Spanish exploration and discovery of California; the archeological investigation of the Indian culture that already occupied this area; the controversy about Cabrillo's nationality; the interpretive program at Cabrillo National Monument; and the annual celebrations commemorating Cabrillo's landing in San Diego in September.
- Dr. John Adams discusses the literary origins of the name "California."
- Dr. James Moriarty comments on the Indian cultures and the length of their occupation of this area, discusses current archeological research; and talks about Cabrillo's character and his (Moriarty's) reasons for believing that Cabrillo was Portuguese.
- Anthony Codina reminisces about his experiences portraying Cabrillo in several previous festivals.
- Mary Giglitto describes the different activities that take place during the annual Cabrillo festival.
- Tom Tucker and Terry DiMattio discuss some of the programs that take place regularly at the Cabrillo National Monument.
- Dr. Michael Mathes discusses his reasons for believing that Cabrillo was Spanish, rather than Portuguese.
Original broadcast date: September 5, 1978. Total running time: 58:39.
Program #2: Junipero Serra (1713-1784):
Father Junipero Serra was a Franciscan missionary who was Founder-Presidente of the California Missions. He was instrumental in establishing the first permanent European settlement in California, at San Diego, in 1769. The Serra Museum in Presidio Park is named for him, and he is the topmost figure in the sculptured facade of the California Building in Balboa Park.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the significance of the establishment of the first Spanish settlement in California at San Diego in 1769; the development of the Mission system under the direction of Father Serra; and the cultural differences between the Indians and the Spaniards.
- Dr. Iris Engstrand discusses the motives for Spanish colonization of California, the plans of Jose de Galvez, the role of the missions as instruments of colonization, and the conflicts between missionaries and military governors.
- Father Francis Guest describes the character and achievements of Father Serra, and comments on the cultural values of the eighteenth century.
- Roy Cook discusses the culture of the Kumeyaay Indians and the impact of colonization on their way of life.
- Dr. Lucy Killea describes some examples of conflict between Indians and Spanish settlers, including the attack on the Mission in 1775; and comments on the aims and achievements of the Mission system.
- Monsignor I. Brent Egan describes present-day activities at Mission San Diego.
- Bill Parker talks about the annual Trek to the Cross in July, commemorating the establishment of Spanish settlement in San Diego.
- Dr. Ray Brandes discusses the archeological excavations at the Mission, and comments on the significance of Mission architecture.
Original broadcast date: September 12, 1978. Total running time: 62:12.
Program #3: Henry Delano Fitch (1798-1849):
Henry Fitch was the first American to settle permanently in San Diego and become a Mexican citizen. Fitch was a Yankee trader and shopkeeper who was elected to various offices in Mexican San Diego, and in 1845 he prepared the map of the Pueblo Lands which established the city's original boundaries. Fitch literally put San Diego on the map, and because of the generous boundary drawn by Fitch, the City of San Diego had nearly 50,000 acres of land to sell later on to real estate developers such as Alonzo Horton.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the development of San Diego during the Mexican period (1821-1846), including the secularization of the Missions, the establishment of San Diego as a Pueblo, the significance of the Mexican land-grant ranchos, the gradual movement of American settlers into the area; and the effect of these developments on the Indian population.
- Dr. Iris Engstrand discusses the legal background of Pueblo status and land-use, based on the Laws of the Indies.
- John Witt and Robert Teaze describe important differences in Anglo-Saxon and Spanish legal concepts in regard to land and water use; and comment on the importance of Pueblo Lands in San Diego.
- Robert Austin talks about his musical, "My Cousin Josefa," which dramatizes the romantic elopement of Henry Fitch and Josefa Carrillo.
- Charles Carrillo comments on the importance of family traditions and their relation to historical actuality.
- Dr. Lucy Killea discusses changes in land use as the cattle industry developed during the Rancho era, and the effect of these changes on the local Indians' way of life.
- Dr. Paul Ezell describes the archeological excavations at Presidio Park, and the discovery of the Fitch family graves.
Original broadcast date: September 19, 1978. Total running time: 59:55.
Program #4: Jose Antonio Estudillo (1805-1852):
Don Jose Antonio Estudillo was one of the most important representatives of the Mexican period in San Diego's history, that relatively short period of time between the Mexican Revolution of 1821, when Mexico declared its independence from Spain, and the American conquest of 1846, when California (and other areas in the southwest) became part of the United States. Estudillo served as alcalde (Mayor), judge, and treasurer in Mexican San Diego, and then held office as County Assessor after California became part of the United States, in the 1850s.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the contrast between the romance and the reality of life in Mexican-era San Diego, from the Mexican revolution of independence in 1821 to the American conquest of California in 1846, including such topics as the development of the Ranchos and the cattle-hide trade; the effects of secularization of the Missions and the Indians; the Mexican War and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo; and the continuing significance of San Diego's Mexican heritage, illustrated in Old Town State Park and its Living History program, and the activities of the "Fronteras" organization.
- Troy Jordan discusses the career of Jose Antonio Estudillo, the importance of the Casa de Estudillo in Old Town, and the Living History program carried out at the Machado-Stewart House.
- Roberto Estudillo shares memories of his family and of the colorful fiestas in Mexican-era San Diego.
- Charles Hughes discusses his research on the hardships and primitive conditions of life in San Diego and on the Ranchos.
- Dr. Iris Engstrand describes the movement of Americans into California and the background of the Mexican War; and later, discusses the plans for continuing restoration in Old Town.
- Dr. Richard Griswold del Castillo discusses the Mexican War and the importance of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
- Dr. Lucy Killea comments on the significance of the boundary line separating Alta California from Baja California, and the activities of the "Fronteras" organization in developing programs for bicultural exchange and understanding.
- Roy Cook discusses the effect of American occupation on the Indians, the Garra Revolt of 1851, and the development of Indian reservations.
- Victor Magee describes population growth in San Diego as a result of the Gold Rush to California in 1849, and the effects of this growth.
Original broadcast date: September 26, 1978. Total running time: 61:01.
Program #5: Louis Rose (1807-1888):
Louis Rose is in some ways an example of the fulfillment of the American Dream: a poor Jewish immigrant who fled religious persecution in Europe, came to the United States, and made a success as a businessman and landowner. Born in Germany, Rose immigrated to the U.S. and settled in New Orleans, where he became a naturalized citizen in 1847. He was caught up in the Westward movement, traveling first to Texas, and then to California in 1850. Rose ended up playing an important role in promoting the development of San Diego's economy and its urbanization. At one time he owned 4,000 acres of land, where amongst many other projects, he raised cattle, constructed brickyards, and built hotels and stores. Rose was also one of San Diego's earliest city-boosters and railroad promoters. He played an integral part in developing the transcontinental rail connection which resulted in the huge population boom of the 1880s, and thus laid the foundations for San Diego's modern urban development.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the growth of San Diego from the beginning of the American period until the 1880s, emphasizing the increase in ethnic diversity and economic activity, of which Louis Rose was an important symbol.
- Dr. Norton Stern discusses the life and character of Louis Rose, and comments on the significance of his business ventures.
- Henry Schwartz describes Rose's real estate developments in San Diego, his leadership in the Jewish community, and the plans to move Temple Beth Israel (San Diego's oldest Jewish synagogue) to Heritage Park for use as a community center.
- Sylvia Arden discusses the diary of Victoria Jacobs, which she edited, and the ways in which it illustrates life in San Diego in the 1850's.
- Roy Cook comments on the impact of urbanization on rural values, and establishment of Indian reservations in the County.
- Troy Jordan talks about plans to interpret multi-ethnic history in Old Town State Park, including a proposal to reconstruct the Light-Freeman Saloon, owned and operated by black Americans during the Mexican era.
- Dick Yale discusses the importance of newspapers in historical research, and describes the old San Diego Herald and some of the humorous articles written for it by Lt. George Horatio Derby.
Original broadcast date: October 3, 1978. Total running time: 59:36.
Program #6: Alonzo Horton (1813-1909):
Alonzo Horton is often known as the father of modern San Diego. He was born in upper New York State and worked as an itinerant trader. In 1867, he attended a lecture in which the California coast and its harbors were described. He was so inspired by this that he immediately sold all his holdings to move to San Diego, buy land, and build a city. At the time, San Diego was but a village of roughly 2,000 people. Through persistent land acquisition and development, Horton eventually built houses, office buildings, and a long wharf at the foot of Fifth Avenue to enable commercial vessel traffic. Horton was also active in the efforts to bring a railroad to San Diego, and successfully relocated the center of San Diego's development from Old Town to the waterfront. His many significant contributions laid the foundations for San Diego's modern urban growth.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the growth of San Diego from the 1860's to 1900, a period which was most notable for the boom of the 1880s following completion of the railroad to San Diego. The great increase in population and real estate development that resulted from the railroad's nationwide advertising campaign made possible the financing of urban necessities and amenities such as sewer, water, transit; and the beginning of cultural developments such as musical and literary organizations, parks and opera houses. The foundations of San Diego's urban development were established in this era.
- June Reading discusses William Heath Davis, Thomas Whaley, and other early developers in San Diego before Horton came.
- Shirley Vance describes Horton's earlier venture in city-building in Hortonville, Wisconsin.
- Elizabeth MacPhail recounts Horton's coming to San Diego, purchasing land, promoting urban development, and participating in significant activities in San Diego until his death in 1909; she comments on Horton's character, and his successes and failures.
- Frank Curran talks about plans to revitalize downtown San Diego, and points out some of the problems that resulted from Horton's gridiron street layout.
Original broadcast date: October 10, 1978. Total running time: 70:33.
Program #7: John D. Spreckels (1853-1926):
John D. Spreckels was born in Charleston, South Carolina, the oldest child of a German immigrant, Claus Spreckels, known as "the Sugar King" because of his vast holdings in both Hawaii and the United States. He became a wealthy man in his own right within a few years after establishing his own businesses in ship building, transportation, and importing. Spreckels first came to San Diego during the boom of the 1880s and began his investments in the area then. During the next thirty years, he became the wealthiest man and single most dominant economic force in the San Diego area, as owner of the Hotel del Coronado, all of Coronado Island, the San Diego Union and Evening Tribune, several office buildings and banks, the San Diego & Arizona Eastern Railway, the San Diego Electric Railway, and more. Spreckels' holdings were so great that he employed thousands of people in his different enterprises, and at one time paid an estimated 10 percent of all property taxes in the county. He was also the largest individual contributor to the 1915 Panama-California Exposition. The Spreckels Organ Pavilion, home of the world's largest outdoor organ and site of many local concerts and community events, is named after him.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests some aspects of the life of John D. Spreckels, and his impact on San Diego's economic development and urban growth pattern during the period 1890-1930. The continuing influence of Spreckels' projects is illustrated by visits to the Organ Pavilion in Balboa Park, and the Spreckels Theatre. The debate [at the time] over mass transit facilities is discussed by Senator Mills.
- Dana Basney discusses Spreckels' character and motivations, and the development of his varied business activities, especially in water systems and public transit.
- Senator James Mills comments on the significance of the San Diego Electric Railway system, and on the difficulties of building the San Diego Arizona and Eastern Railroad. He discusses possibilities for the future use of the railroad right-of-way.
- Zelma Locker reminisces about riding the streetcars in Depression-era San Diego.
- Jeff Schlaes and Jacquelyn Littlefield talk about the historic Spreckels Theatre and their plans to renovate the facilities.
- Bob Johnston recalls the "good old days" of live theatre and burlesque performances in San Diego, and the changes that have taken place since the 1920s.
- Jared Jacobsen plays selections on the Spreckels outdoor organ in Balboa Park, and Lyle Blackington takes us on a tour of the organ's pressure chamber.
- Richard Pourade comments on the newspaper rivalry between Spreckels' San Diego Union and E.W. Scripps' San Diego Sun.
- C.J. Stafford shares his memories of what it was like to do business with John D. Spreckels.
Original broadcast date: October 17, 1978. Total running time: 69:21.
Program #8: Kate Sessions (1857-1940):
Kate Sessions was a noted botanist, horticulturist, and landscape architect known as the "Mother of Balboa Park" and the Dean of California horticulturists. She was born in San Francisco in 1857, the eldest child of Josiah and Harriet Sessions. She grew up in Oakland where she developed her first interest in botany, and graduated from the University of California at Berkeley in 1881. Three years later, Sessions came to San Diego to teach at Russ High School. The next year she bought the San Diego Nursery with some friends, eventually going into business for herself and helping to landscape the Hotel del Coronado grounds. The City of San Diego entered into an agreement with Sessions in 1892 to operate a nursery on 30 acres of land in Balboa (then City) Park. During this time, she planted hundreds of eucalyptus, pine, oak, and cypress trees, which now loom so high against the skyline. Her advice and experimentation were vital in determining the location and type of planting done in Balboa Park for the 1915 Panama-California Exposition. In 1939, Kate Sessions became the first woman to ever receive the Meyer Medal from the American Genetic Association for her contributions to horticultural science.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the influence of Kate Sessions on the development of Balboa Park, and the significance of the Panama-California Exposition of 1915, which left a legacy of handsome Spanish-Colonial buildings that have become the cultural and community center of San Diego.
- Elizabeth MacPhail discusses several aspects of the career and achievements of Kate Sessions, and her enduring contributions to San Diego's landscape.
- Sam Hamill recalls his experiences as a boy at the Panama-California Exposition, his subsequent involvement in designing buildings for the 1935 Exposition, and his contemporary activities in preservation for the buildings along El Prado in Balboa Park.
- Bea Evenson describes her activities in arousing public support for historic preservation, and the struggles of the Committee of 100 to save the Spanish-Colonial buildings in the Park.
- Pauline des Granges discusses the importance of Balboa Park as a cultural and recreational resource for citizens, and its economic value as a tourist attraction.
- Chauncey Jerabek shares his reminiscences of Kate Sessions' strong-willed personality, and her contributions to the science of horticulture in the importation of plants that would grow well in San Diego's particular climate and soil conditions.
Original broadcast date: October 24, 1978. Total running time: 60:44.
Program #9: Ellen Browning Scripps (1836-1932):
Ellen Browning Scripps was born in London in 1836 into a bookbinder's family. Over the course of her life, she held two important careers. First, she was a working newswoman, columnist, and editorial consultant for her family's newspaper in the Midwest for over 20 years. In an era when few women entered professions other than teaching or nursing, this was an achievement in itself. But her accomplishment was even more noteworthy because of her success in this field, professionally and financially. Her shrewd investments in newspaper stock and in real estate enabled her to retire in comfort at 60 and then begin her second career — that of creative philanthropist. San Diego in general, and the suburb of La Jolla in particular, benefited greatly from Scripps' many thoughtful gifts. She played an extremely important role in developing the beauty of both land and buildings in La Jolla, including Torrey Pines Park, the Women's Club, and Scripps Medical Clinic. Her major philanthropies were the College named for her at Pomona, and the initial buildings at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, which subsequently resulted in the establishment of the University of California at San Diego.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the character and activities of Ellen Browning Scripps and her brother, newspaper tycoon E.W. Scripps; the founding of Scripps Institution of Oceanography and the subsequent development of UCSD; and Ellen Scripps' many gifts to the San Diego area. In large part, because of her activities, La Jolla has become a symbol of "the good life," with its parks and beaches and its artistic, architectural, cultural, and educational leadership.
- Ellen Revelle discusses her personal recollections of her great-aunt, Ellen Scripps; she comments on her career as a news-woman and her later activities in La Jolla.
- Dr. Roger Revelle describes the early years of Scripps Institute of Oceanography and its relation to the development of UCSD.
- Dr. Fred Spiess discusses the historic Scripps Laboratory, designed by Irving Gill, and the efforts to preserve it.
The second part of this program is devoted to a survey of resources for the study of local history:
- At UCSD, Kenneth Hill discusses his collection of works about Pacific Ocean exploration which are housed at the UCSD Library; Ronald Silveira takes us into the vault as he describes some of the business and personal papers relating to San Diego history in the Special Collections Department.
- At San Diego State University, Dr. Steven Colston describes some of the corporate and organizational records in the San Diego History Research Center archives.
- At the San Diego Public Library, Rhoda Kruse discusses the books and periodicals available for study of local history in the California Room; she describes the detailed index to San Diego newspapers dating back more than a century.
- At the San Diego Historical Society Research Library, Sylvia Arden describes the resources for study of local history, and mentions some special materials available only at the Society's library, including oral interviews with pioneer San Diegans.
- James Moss describes the publications program of the San Diego Historical Society and some of its other activities.
Original broadcast date: October 31, 1978. Total running time: 61:52.
Program #10: William Kettner (1864-1930):
William "Bill" Kettner came to San Diego as a young man, and with a winning personality and love of the city, he became a prominent citizen elected to Congress as a Democrat for four terms, 1913-1921. Kettner was strongly supported by both Democrats and Republicans. While he was a congressman, he played a key role in bringing to San Diego the Navy base, which has been a major influence on the development of San Diego. Upon his retirement in 1921, Kettner Boulevard in San Diego was renamed to honor him.
Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the significant role played by Congressman Kettner in bringing Naval facilities to San Diego in the early years of the twentieth century, and the continuing impact of the Navy's presence on San Diego's economy, population, and urban development.
- Lucy DuVall discusses her research for her master's thesis on the life and times of Kettner, focusing on his Congressional career and success in attracting Naval installations to San Diego.
- Lee Grissom describes the role of the Chamber of Commerce in supporting Kettner's efforts to establish the Naval Training Center and other installations.
- Rear Admiral Putt Storres, Vice Admiral Robert Hickey, and Captain Don Smith reminisce about the early days of naval aviation in San Diego.
- William Mockler describes the effect on San Diego's harbor development of dredging to accommodate the deep-draft Navy ships.
- Dr. Daniel Weinberg comments on various aspects of the Navy's influence on the economy, ethnic mx, and land use of the San Diego region.
- Hamilton Marston discusses the Lynch-Appleyard report, and its suggestions for alternative development of various waterfront sites.
- Frank Curran talks about the first time he met Kettner.
- C.J. Stafford shares his recollections of working with Kettner, and gives some insights into his personal style.
Original broadcast date: November 7, 1978. Total running time: 64:54.
Program #11: Ed Fletcher:
Ed Fletcher came to San Diego from Massachusetts as a teenager during the boom of the 1880s. In his lifetime he was active in the development of water supply systems for this region. He was a highway promoter and land developer, and later in life, a California State Senator.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests some of the land, water, and highway developments that Ed Fletcher—called the "Prince of Promoters" by his friend George Marston—was involved in during the first half of the twentieth century. In his own right, or in conjunction with other investors, Fletcher controlled thousands of acres of land throughout San Diego County, especially along the routes of the San Diego, San Dieguito, and San Luis Rey rivers. When you think water, think "Fletcher": he was instrumental in the development of reservoirs and irrigation systems along those rivers. Dam sites for El Capitan and San Vicente reservoirs (along the San Diego river) were included in the holdings of Fletcher's Cuyamaca Water Co. when it was acquired by the City of San Diego.
- Ed Fletcher, Jr. reminisces about his father's activities in subdivision and water system development, and recalls what the water was like in the old San Diego Flume.
- Dr. Iris Engstrand discusses the historical differences between Spanish and Anglo-Saxon law in regard to water rights.
- William Jennings describes the court battle during the 1920s which resulted in a decision that the City of San Diego had paramount rights to the San Diego river water.
- John Witt and Robert Teaze comment on legal problems arising from multi-state claims on the water of the Colorado river.
- Roy Cook discusses Indian claims and water rights.
- Charles Hughes and Thomas Scharf describe the San Diego Historical Society's collection of materials on San Diego County water development.
- Russell Crane shares his reminiscences about Fletcher's dynamic personality and his involvement in County highway development and road races.
- Glenn Rick recalls Fletcher's role in transferring State-owned tidelands to San Diego for development of Mission Bay Park.
Original broadcast date: November 14, 1978. Total running time: 65:37.
Program #12: George Marston (1850-1946):
George Marston was known as "San Diego's First Citizen" for his contributions to the city, particularly the planning and development of Presidio Park, the Serra Museum, and Balboa Park. Marston was born in Wisconsin on October 22, 1850, and arrived in San Diego with his family in 1870. Eighteen years later, Marston opened his own high-quality department store known as Marston's. Through his regular travels to New York on buying trips for the store, Marston became interested in parks and urban planning. His interest in these areas eventually led to the creation of many of the parks that San Diegans enjoy to this day. Marston also founded the San Diego Historical Society in 1928, and his family home known as the Marston House is now a museum and historic landmark.
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Producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests the personality, interests, and civic legacy of George Marston, leader in park development, urban planning, and the preservation of our history.
- Mary Marston and Elizabeth Bade share memories of their father, describing his love of music, literature, and ice-skating; Mary Marston describes his role in creating Presidio Park.
- Mercedes Bunn talks about Marston's department store, and the organization of the Marstonites.
- Hamilton Marston discusses his grandfather's business career and his role in sponsoring the Nolen Plan for San Diego.
- Rhoda Kruse describes Marston's participation in developing the San Diego Public Library.
- Zelma Locker recalls the dedication ceremonies for Presidio Park and the Serra Museum.
- O.W. Todd describes his friendship with Marston when they served on the YMCA Board of Directors.
- Lee Grissom discusses the Lynch-Appleyard report, sponsored by the Marston family, and its recommendations for San Diego's future planning.
Original broadcast date: November 21, 1978. Total running time: 62:26.
Program #13: San Diego: Past and Present:
In the final installment of this thirteen-part series, producer Peter Hamlin and historian Dr. Clare Crane discuss with their guests some predominant themes in San Diego history, and modern development of the city since World War II.
- Dr. Daniel Weinberg, Associate Professor of History at San Diego State University, discusses key factors in the development of the city, namely its terrain and the work of early developers.
- Richard Pourade, editor emeritus of the San Diego Union and author of a 7-volume series of books on San Diego history, compares the history of Los Angeles' development to that of San Diego.
- Lee Grissom, Executive Vice President of the San Diego Chamber of Commerce, discusses the need for San Diego to have an image distinct from Los Angeles.
- Orian W. Todd Jr., local businessman, briefly talks about the difference in San Diego leadership of the early 20th century compared to the late 1970s.
The program concludes with an in-depth panel discussion by two long-time observers of the San Diego scene: KFMB reporter and San Diego Magazine journalist Harold Keen, and Evening Tribune columnist and author Neil Morgan. The two are joined by Dr. Clare Crane and comment on the following themes:
- the role of individuals in the urbanization of a community;
- the nature of the decision-making process;
- a debate over managed growth policy, which the San Diego City Council adopted at the time as a method of halting urban sprawl and redirecting growth to inner city areas in order to revitalize them.
Original broadcast date: November 28, 1978. Total running time: 65:02.